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Summary of Deposition of Geoffrey C. Bible (8/21/97)
Summary of Deposition of
Geoffrey C. Bible
CEO and Chairman of the Board of Philip Morris
Companies
08/21/97
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Q: My name is Ron Motley, and I will
be asking you questions. Would you state your name, please, sir, your age,
and your address for the record.
A: My name is Geoffrey Bible. I’m 60
years of age, and I live in Greenwich, Connecticut.
Q: Mr. Bible, would you state your
current position with Philip Morris.
A: Yes. I’m chief executive officer
and chairman of the board of Philip Morris Companies.
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Q: Well, do you recall likening Philip
Morris and the cigarette industry to Winston Churchill and President Roosevelt
of the United States?
A: I don’t recall saying that, no.
Q: Do you recall describing antitobacco
advocates as the Germans and bad guys in World War II?
A: No, I never said that.
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Q: You did not then compare the cigarette
industry as the allies and the antitobacco public health advocates as Germans?
A: No, I don’t remember saying that
at all.
Q: Did you recall assuring the 2,000
or so Philip Morris employees that Philip Morris would eventually win over
the public health advocates in the cigarette battle?
A: I don’t recall saying "the
public health advocates." I could have -- I don’t remember saying
that. But I could imagine myself having said that we would win the battle.
Q: Win the battle. And the battle is
between the cigarette industry and the public health community?
A: No, I think I would say those people
who are antitobacco generally.
Q: Well, that would include the Surgeon
General of the United States?
A: Could, hm-hm.
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Q: And you were disturbed because a
former employee’s finance named Hatsy Heep had turned over to the press
documents including a document by a researcher in which he described cigarettes
as hooking your customers. Do you recall that?
A: I recall the event, yes.
Q: Well, you don’t recall yourself,
Geoffrey Bible, using the words, "I will not sit silently as secret
research materials are leaked to the media"?
A: I don’t recall that statement, but
I doubt I would have used the word "secret" because I don’t believe
we have secret documents.
Q: Do you recall, sir, that a judge
in the state of Minnesota has accused your company of trying to hide documents
in European subsidiaries from the court in Minnesota?
A: I’ve heard that, yes.
Q: Yes. Well, were you disturbed that
a judge would accuse Philip Morris of trying to hide secret research material
in Europe?
A: Yes, I was disturbed, because I
don’t believe we do.
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Q: Would you, as the number one man
at Philip Morris agree to turn over all documents that might be in Europe
that deal with cigarettes and health to the State of Florida?
A: Oh, I’d take the advice of my general
counsel on that.
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Q: So there would be circumstances
that you would agree that documents could be secreted away in Europe from
United States courts?
A: No, it would depend upon what my
general counsel would advise me.
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Q: Do you recall telling your 2,000
employees on April 25th, 1996, that Philip Morris has never lost a smoking-related
case and that you didn’t intend to lose any in the future?
A: I remember that.
Q: Did you remember telling the 2,000
employees gathered on April 25th, 1996, in tents in Richmond, Virginia,
that Philip Morris was going to fight to the death the Food & Drug
Administration’s efforts to regulate cigarettes as nicotine delivery devices?
A: I remember that.
Q: that a person who is addicted loses
his free will to make a choice?
A: No, I’m not familiar with that.
Q: Well, would you agree sir, that
is a person’s addicted to something, that his ability to exercise his free
will is destroyed?
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Q: Do you approve, sir, as the number
one officer of Philip Morris, of executives of the company discussing amongst
themselves destroying data?
A: Well, that doesn’t sound something
that I should not be unconcerned about; it would always concern me, but
I would always need to know the circumstances.
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Q: Sir, you advocate adults in America
having the freedom of choosing whether to smoke, do you not?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Are you aware that there’s a corollary
to freedom of choice, and that’s called full disclosure? In other words,
people should have all the information needed to make their choice?
MR. BLEAKLEY: Objection to the form
of the question.
SPECIAL MASTER RUTTER: Overruled.
Q: You can answer, sir.
A: No, I wasn’t aware of the corollary,
but it sounds sensible.
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Q: I suspected perhaps you did. Can
you tell me, sir, how many cancer-causing substances are in Marlboro when
you smoke one?
A: I believe that there are around
40 animal carcinogens that have been identified in cigarette smoke. That
was I think in the Surgeon General’s report.
Q: Do you know when you smoke a Marlboro,
that you may be taking in radioactive substances in your body?
A: No, I didn’t know that.
Q: Have you ever heard of polonium
210?
A: I think I have, yes.
Q: Do you know that polonium 210 is
a contaminant of tobacco?
A: No, I didn’t know that.
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Q: Mr. Bible, would you describe your
current compensation package by Philip Morris Companies, Inc?
A: Yes, I have a base salary. You need
to know the amount?
Q: Yes, sir.
A: One - That’s 1.5 million dollars.
Q: Yes, sir.
A: And at the end of each year we have
a bonus, and my bonus last year I think was one and a half million dollars.
And we have stock options. And we have a long-term incentive bonuses payable
every three years. That’s essentially my package.
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Q: You currently own approximately
seven million or more dollars in stock value with Philip Morris?
A: No. I own about seventy-five, seventy-eight
thousand shares, and that would be about three million dollars. Plus the
restricted stock.
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Q: Sir, what year - what age did you
begin smoking?
A: Fourteen -- approximately 14.
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Q: you are aware of that. Sir, if it
were established to your satisfaction, to your satisfaction, that cigarettes
were a cause of lung cancer, would you order your company to stop manufacturing
cigarettes until what it is in cigarettes that cause lung cancer could
be removed?
A: Well, that’s a tough hypothesis.
I think if that were to happen, my first reaction would be to very quickly
see what it was that was causing the difficulty, and to see quickly if
we could remove it, address it satisfactorily. I think I’d need to speak
with the government very quickly to see if they would continue to consider
the product a legal product, because if it were an illegal product, then
naturally we couldn’t continue to manufacture it.
The tobacco industry is a -- is a large
industry, huge economic impact in this country. Lots of very vital interests,
like tobacco growers and retailers, employees.
I think I’d need to assess the circumstances
at the time to see exactly what I would do, instantly. But I would address
it with full vigor and consult with the government.
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Q: So while you decide what to do,
Philip Morris would continue to produce two billion cigarettes a day?
A: No, I didn’t say that.
Q: Would you - Would you shut it down?
A: It would depend on the circumstances.
It’s a bit hard for me to say in a vacuum here. I think -- If you’ll force
me to say what would I do in those circumstances, I’d probably say sure
I’d shut it down instantly to get a better hold on things, but I would
hope to get a better hold and talk with the government very quickly.
Q: So you don’t agree with the chief
executive officer of Lorillard that as long as -- until the United States
declared cigarettes illegal, and even if 139,000 Americans died every year
of lung cancer, he’d continue selling cigarettes. You don’t agree with
that philosophy --
A: I don’t know why he said that. What
he says is his opinion and not my opinion, so --
Q: And you don’t share that opinion?
A: I can’t comment on that. I’ve told
you what my opinion is.
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Q: And the warning, if you’d hold it
there, says that "Smoking causes lung cancer," correct? That’s
what it says.
A: That’s right. Government health
warning.
Q: That’s a government warning. Does
Philip Morris agree with the government of Australia that smoking causes
lung cancer?
A: No.
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Q: Does Philip Morris agree that smoking
is addictive? "Yes" or "No", sir?
A: You need to define -- As far as
I know, to answer that I need to give the definition of it. In a sense,
pharmacologically it is not addictive.
Q: In other words, Philip Morris --
A: Behavioral it is, perhaps.
Q: Philip Morris does not agree with
the warning placed on cigarettes manufactured in the United States and
sold in Australia that says "smoking is addictive"; you just
-- you don’t agree with that?
A: No.
Q: Now --
A: Certainly not pharmacologically
addictive anyway.
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Q: So, in the United States, you sell
cigarettes that have more tar in it than the Australian government allows
you to sell, correct?
A: That’s right. And the same with
the European Union.
Q: So you make cigarettes in Richmond
for the American market that contains 16 milligrams of tar, but when you
sell the same cigarette to Australia, it has to have less, correct?
A: That’s right. That’s in conformity
with the law.
Q: So you were selling cigarettes in
Europe and in the United States that had warning labels on it, but you
were selling it to Third World countries that had no warnings whatsoever,
before 1990?
A: In some markets, I believe that’s
right.
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Q: Are you aware of whether or not
Philip Morris, for a period of time, paid the legal fees of the Liggett
group in tobacco-disease litigation?
A: I’m aware we paid some of their
litigation fees, yes.
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Q: And what does it say, sir?
A: It says, "Warning: Smoking
is Addictive."
Q: And that is a cigarette that is
sold by Philip Morris in other parts of the world, correct?
A: It’s a trademark, yes.
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Q: Yes. And he’s the first industry
manufacturer of cigarettes in the United States to take that position,
that nicotine is a drug and nicotine is addictive, correct?
A: To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q: Do you believe nicotine is a drug,
Mr. Bible?
A: I think it’s a drug, but I think
it’s a drug with very mild pharmacological effects.
Q: Do you believe cigarettes are a
nicotine delivery device?
A: No, I don’t.
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Q: Okay. Mr. Bible, I’m going to be
finished here in a few minutes, believe it or not, and -- but I want to
ask you a few questions about something called the gentlemen’s agreement.
Are you aware that there’s an allegation that cigarette companies in the
1950's joined hands together and entered into a silent, secret gentlemen’s
agreement not to do biological testing with animals in-house internally?
A: No, I’m not aware of that.
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Q: You wouldn’t countenance even discussing
destroying documents from the Surgeon General this day, would you?
A: Documents from the Surgeon General?
Q: Withholding documents --
A: Withholding documents from the Surgeon
General.
Q: Yes.
A: It would depend on the documents.
I’d need to ask my general counsel if they are privileged.
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Q: "In markets where Marlboro
Reds’ share of young adult smokers has declined, share of starters was
also down. Thus the ability to attract new smokers and develop them into
a young adult franchise is a key to brand development."
Does that indicate to you, sir, that
at least the marketing department was discussing ways to get people to
start smoking?
A: No. I can be really frank about
this. What that means is that to the extent that people decide to start
smoking, we want them to smoke our brand. So our ability to have the new
smoker choose our brand versus a competitor’s brand is what that’s referring
to.
Q: Well, how do you get a nonsmoker
to start smoking your brand? By advertising?
A: We don’t. But they need to have
a certain awareness that the brands exists.
Q: How do you get that awareness? You
do that by advertising, correct?
A: Well, yes, advertising, sponsorship.
Q: Now, are you aware that a Philip
Morris marketing five-year plan in 1983 calls children ages 15 to 19 the
primary source of new smokers and sets forth a plan to exploit smoking
menthol brands among young people through means such as, quote, "increased
distribution of menthol at youth locations"?
A: What year was it again?
Q: 1983.
A: No, I’m not aware of it.
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Q: Sir, my last question to you is
-- is very simply this. Would Philip Morris agree that a single American
citizen who smoked their products for 30 or more years, a single one, has
ever died of disease caused in part by smoking cigarettes?
A: I think there’s a fair chance that
one would have, yes. Might have.
Q: How about a thousand?
A: Might have.
Q: A hundred thousand?
A: Might have.
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