STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL TDS
p, r@:!\n I 1\1 i3 F I LE
GIRCULPJED
Notes on BAT/ITL Joint Meeting
held at Southampton on 25th October, 1978
Present: Dr. H. R. Bentley
Mr. J. G. Burgan ITL
Dr. R. J. K. Shepherd)
Dr. S. J. Green
Dr. L. C. F. Blackman BAT
Dr. D. G. Felton
Hunter Committee
The meeting reviewed the progress of the meeting of
Company scientists with Dr. F. A. Fairweather and A. Nelmes of
DHSS held on 24th October. RJKS listed the following points:-
Para. 13 To be reworded in accordance with the proposal from
RJKS.
Para. 14 Mr. Wilson (Gallaher) wanted a discussion on the wording
of this. It was recommended that HRB should persuade
Gallaher and Carreras to leave this as it currently stood.
Para. 19 Despite Dr. Roe's clarification of the complexities of
the carcinogenic process, no change was proposed as
there had been no request for comment by TAC.
Para. 20 Detailed consideration was given to the proposed
Gallaher redraft. ITL agreed broadly with the Gallaher
figures as stated, but attempts to complete the gaps,
revealed that the nicotine figures for both plain and
filter brands had risen during 1977. It was agreed to
leave it to Gallaher to find a way out of the impasse
into which they had led the industry.
Para. 21 Delete "manufactured from tobacco stem".
Appendix I: After consultation with Mr. A. Reid, HRB
initiated action with Sir James Wilson to get TAC
agreement to an approach to the Minister to get the
terms of reference of the I.S.C. changed back to the
original, viz. "To advise on the scientific
thereby leaving it indeterminate as to who would
receive the advice.
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Appendix III: Minor corrections were mentioned. CO
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Appendix IV: ITL will reserve their position on the use
of hamsters. The industry as a whole are not, there-
fore, in agreement about this.
HRB would propose to TAC that Dr. Roe's
critique on the use of hamsters should be sent to DHSS.
Appendix V: RJKS suggested that the redraft which has
been tabled by BAT was unlikely to be accepted by FAF.
Appendix VI: The definition of "additives" was reworded
so as to exclude reconstituted tobacco and aqueous
extracts of tobacco, including nicotine. The new
proposal:-
11 ... any substance, other than water and substances
manufactured wholly from tobacco, which is added..."
This wording was confirmed with Gallaher and
Carreras and telephoned to Mr. Grice to be forwarded
from TAC to DHSS.
Huntingdon Research Centre
HRB explained that ITL were cutting back their
financial guaranteed commitment over three years to zero in
1979/80, when they would finance each project ad hoc. Currently,
they had a large scale monkey inhalation experiment directed at
cardiovascular diseases and entailing combinations of atherogenic
and normal diets with exposure to smoke, carbon monoxide and
nicotine vapour. Residues of the NSM programme involving rat
inhalation and a mouse-skin crossover experiment awaited analysis.
Other investigations, e.g. on PVA adhesives were reassuring in
the short term and long term studies would only be undertaken if
there was firm demands from production for clearance. A
teratology experiment involving fluorocarbon residues was still
unfinished. he aim in the future was to keep the inhalation
toxicology section a viable entity by ad hoc studies.
Meanwhile, HRC were to be asked to forecast the future
pressures from Smoking and Health, e.g. Passive Smoking, the Pill,
Smoking and the Menopause, etc.
ICOSI
HRB explained the change in name and terms of reference
of MBRG to Scientific and Technical Advisory Group (STAG). He
saw the tasks as responding ad hoc to the questions put to it by
ICOSI/EC.
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Current problems were:-
1. Continue the methodology for study of ambient
atmospheres for e.g. carbon monoxide, nitrosamines.
2. Recommend what work need be undertaken to assess
the importance of tobacco vs. other sources of non
tobacco-specific nitrosamines.
3. Recommend how best to discover why people smoke
in the ways that they do, e.g. smoking behaviour, butt
length, etc.
In the future, STAG will not be asked to comment on
lawyer's papers, nor undertake joint research.
It was agreed BAT would table the BIBRA review on
nitrosamines at -the Belfast STAG meeting.
ERB said that, according to Ed Jacob, the Gori paper
raised problems in the USA and there was an urgent need to
discredit league tables. The book of the BAT Chelwood conference
was discussed in this context.
HRB also reported that ITL had objected strongly to
the last redraft'of the paper to the EC/CCC produced by Finnigan
and had apparently blocked its submission.
TAC Research Committee
The meeting reviewed the Agenda for the forthcoming
meeting of the TAC Research Committee.
SJG said BAT's policy was to end TRC research as soon
as possible and not to start any new work. HRB confirmed that
this was ITL's view as well, but warned that Sir James Wilson
had been lobbying for support for the programme of research
proposed by Roe and Lee, on the grounds that it was worth
undertaking for various reasons, e.g. relations with Government,
facing future challenges, etc.
The BAT/ITL view was that this would have been correct
under the independent umbrella of TRC but, once TRC was closed
for financial and other reasons, the programme lost credence.
The proposals were premature. It was first necessary
to discuss what role research would play in TAC.
HRB explained the complex reasons behind the ITL C>
refusal to support Warburton. At ICOSI, Ed Jacob advised a
total embargo on all work associated with the pharmacology of (-^I'
nicotine and the benefits conferred by smoking for three reasons C71%
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(i) The pending Californian lawsuit which indicted
nicotine as an addictive substance.
(ii) T. I. , C. T. R. and ICOSI were only exempt from
anti-trust proceedings as long as they were concerned
with work on smoking associated diseases. Benefits
were expressly excluded from collaborative studies.
(iii) In the USA, ASH, GASP and ACS have started suit
against Calif ano to show cause why tobacco should not
be brought under the powers of the FDA. Calif ano was
resisting on the grounds that there was no evidence of
personality alterations by nicotine nor of pharmacological
benefits. Therefore, no individual company should work
on benefits.
ICOSI had agreed with this policy and Jacob had been
sent to stop the Verband programme on nicotine. ITL, as the
I Cos I "leader" in the UK, therefore determined that there should
be no support to Warburton to work on "benefits". Now Warburton
is to be supported by Gallaher and Carreras.
SJG made the point that BAT only investigated the
effects of smoke and/or nicotine. Whether effects are a
Te@nefI-t involves a value judgement.
Next Meeting
This was arranged for 8-9 th January, 1979, at Bristol.
DGF/AIW/1.2.5.1
25th October, 1978
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